Wicca

[watershield]

I belong to a number of forums and lately the introductions are starting to wear me out....
"Hi, my name is Buffy, I'm 13 and have been Wicca for 6 weeks"
ARGGGGGGGGGGG!

If you like to draw, does that make you an architech.
No, you need to attend school, become accredited and become a member of that society.

If you believe in Christ, does that make you a Chatholic?
No, you may be a Christian, but to become a Chatholic you need to study the ways of the church, be accepted by the church and be baptised into that faith. They even give you a certificate!

The same is true with Wicca. It is an established religion that requires you to study the tradition of that order you wish to join, be accepted by that tradition and be initiated into that coven.
You should also understand that not all Wiccians are witches. Many do not do spell work at all.
Wicca is not turning your back on the dogma of the church, rather it is dogma based on a different set of beliefs.

Without that process you are a pagan that shares some of the ideas of wicca as you have been expossed to them, But you are not Wiccian.

It's become very easy for people to read half a dozen books, to take a bit of this and a bit of that because it feels right, and declair themselves a wiccian. Even to the point of doing a self dedication.
But in my view, your still not a wiccian. After all, can a man read the bible, self dedicate himself to God and walk into a church and declair himself a priest?
I know people will say (and I have said it as well) that lables mean very little. True, unless you EARNED that lable and hold it as something meaningful and important.

I know this will not put a stop to it, but I just needed to vent a tad

[Jen]

Yeah I kind of agree with you - Wicca is a dogma just like Christianity (which is why I'm not Wiccan or Christian).

HOWEVER I think that many Christians out there will tell you that just simply believing in God and Christ DOES in actual fact make you Christian.
I can't see any difference between that and Wicca.

Now if you're talking about magick ( ) then NO you can't just read a few books and start performing spells that make your best friend tell the truth.
That what peeves me off more than anything is that the spiritual connection holds no or little meaning to a LOT of people who would call themselves a witch/warlock...

Magic lives in 2 levels (in fact more like infinite but my head can comprehend 2) and as such has to be dealt with on those same levels.

Physical
Spiritual

If newbies spent more time learning why, when, how and what for then the use of magic would be made clear to them and they wouldn't be seeking spells to change their eye colour and to make someone phone them.

Jeez....now we've both had a rant WS.

[Heka]

I dedicated myself to wicca just under a year ago but the more I develop and the longer I'm around people on the net the more I think I'm just a witch harnessing Wiccan ideas.

I don't really see the appeal of wicca as a religion anymore. Im happy to just be a witch/pagan.

[Goth]

May 14, 2008 10:18:01 GMT 1 Jen said:

HOWEVER I think that many Christians out there will tell you that just simply believing in God and Christ DOES in actual fact make you Christian.

I tend to agree with you Hedge...although I can see where you are coming from too WS.

There are many solitary Wiccans out there who have never been initiated, or attended a coven in their life, but who choose to abide by the Wiccan law and worship the God and Goddess.

I see no harm in that.

Maybe they can't truly call themselves Wiccan if they haven't been initiated, much like a Christian can't truly be called a Christian if they haven't been christened...but to what disadvantage would this be?

It's how you conduct yourself, how you live your life and how at peace with yourself and your beliefs you are that matter, in my opinion.

[Heka]

I think ive changed my mind a bit. i read something somewhere that said that alot of wiccan things are taken from the celts. I like the celts alot and love the way they do things, so i've sortta changed my mind. I'm an eclectic witch who uses celtic ideas... as well as everything else...

[Shadow_Kitten]

I'm curious . . . you say that a person can't call themselves a Wiccan after reading half a dozen books (which I agree with) & that you have to earn the title Wiccan (which I also agree with). So how long do you think one has to study before becoming Wiccan? When is it okay for someone to call themselves Wiccan, in your opinion?

I studied Wicca for almost 5 years before dedicating myself to the path. I was a little hesitant at first because my parent's had raised me Catholic. It wasn't that I didn't want to be Wiccan because I REALLY did, it was just hard to turn my back on everything that I was brought up to believe (despite that fact that I didn't believe any of it to begin with). I didn't want to hurt my family. But on Beltane 2006 I realised that I can't go through life not doing what's right for me just to avoid an argument. So I decided to become Wiccan.

When I made that decision I felt . . . complete. Like there was a part of me that had been missing and I'd just found it. I'll never forget that moment, it changed my life.

I didn't actually do a self-dedication ritual until 8 months after I had that feeling of "coming home" but I count my dedication day from Beltane because that's when I truly dedicated myself to the Lord & Lady. So I've been Wiccan for 1 year, 8 months & 6 days!

There u go! The nut-shell version of my journey as a Witch, lol.

[watershield]

Well, in my opinion....(based on being in a coven in the 70's and having been initiated into Wicca)
I compare wicca quite often to the Roman Catholic Church
Both filled with ritual, priests, alters, etc.

A Christian may study Catholicism for years, share many of the same beliefs. Maybe all the same beliefs. But that person will never be Catholic until they have been accepted into the church through ritual, preformed by a priest

Wicca is the same. You might share 100% of the beliefs, but until you have been "initiated" by a priest or Pristess, you will not truily be wiccea.

Self dedication? Personally I don't feel it's valid. Yes, you may have dedicated yourself to your concept of the Lord and Lady or some other God/goddess. And yes that may give you great peace and fulfilment. But that still does not make you wiccea.
No more than self baptisim would wash away a christians sins. If it did all you would hear at the public pool was "praise Jesus" coming from the deep end.

I know lots of people CALL themselves wiccian and they do share many of the same beliefs.
I think the problem started many years ago. Wicca was a few years old and people were attempting to define who they were and what they believed.
Some half informed author wrote a book, talking about things that he did not fully understand. That lead to more half informed authors with partially correct matterial. (all about money)
People read and the fail to question what they read. They just accept blindly. The problem is for evry one good author, trying to share information, there 50 trying to make a buck writting about things the personally know little about. I remember very well back in the 70's, if you said witch people thought wicca. If you said wicca they thought witch (or devil worshiper)

To be wiccea means that at some point you were initiated into a coven/grove. You may have left the coven environment for any number of reasons, but once wiccea always wiccea (unless you've given up the belief in the Lord and Lady and found a new path, as did I)
If you were never initiated into a coven then your a pagan who shares similar basic beliefs with wiccians.

I know someone is going to ask if I call refer them to a good book.............no.
I read very little anymore as I find that there are very few original thoughts anymore. And with each new book, the original definition of wicca is eroded further.
I will say some of the worst stuff is pened by Silver Ravenwolf. She has a web site much like this. Members discussing / debating. Anexcellent source of information for a person of little personal experience. (My opinion and conjecture after being a member for a short period)

[oshun11]

Watershield, I know that you are being entirely serious about something that bothers you, but you really made me laugh. I had tears in my eyes!

I... um... my name is Oshun and um... I was once buffy...
I... *whispers* self dedicated and everything... and... *barely a whisper* I read Teen Witch... three times...

But then I redeemed myself (If only in my eyes, lol). I kept reading, learning, studying, meeting people, and my entire reality flipped. I am a part of an all women's temple of eclectic witches, pagans, satanists, librarians, social workers, teachers, mothers, and midwives. (Note, this is not a coven) It was mind-blowing for me to see so many personalities that are so different just coming together and learning from one another. I'm considered a baby on my path of learning and have FINALLY contented myself with just enjoying the journey. These women snapped me back into reality showing me how not perfect everything can still be, even if I do weild a wand and pointed hat(j/k). I'll never be perfect and I'm still learning.

Not that you don't already know this WS, but these people who are just starting out are so hyped that they found something to believe in, at least that's how I was... and most likely they will quit "being wicca" when people keep telling them to study and learn and gods forbid, read a book or two concerning the path... and they'll especially quit when NO ONE tells them the damn green eyes to blue spell. (I like violet eyes better anyways) It's like a conspiracy!!! Sheesh! Or, they'll keep learning and evolve like all of us do.

I looked up witchcraft in 1995 online when I first got internet, but at that time, it just wasn't for me. I studied more into psychic happenings and developing the mind. Oh and astrology. But let me quit before I rant about my whole life story.

WS... you'll never, ever stop seeing buffy (the little darling) post everywhere, lol. Just reach down into your reserves of patience when dealing with her :-)

[oshun11]

Jul 6, 2008 9:23:15 GMT 1 watershield said:

Self dedication? Personally I don't feel it's valid. Yes, you may have dedicated yourself to your concept of the Lord and Lady or some other God/goddess. And yes that may give you great peace and fulfilment. But that still does not make you wiccea.
No more than self baptisim would wash away a christians sins. If it did all you would hear at the public pool was "praise Jesus" coming from the deep end.

ROTFL!!! I really should try this sometime. But seriouly, I love self blessings and cleansings. OUt of curiosity WS, you were talking of beloning to a coven once, and you were also initiated into the Wiccan path. If you don't mind my asking, what path or non-path do you follow?

[Shadow_Kitten]

Jul 6, 2008 9:23:15 GMT 1 watershield said:

Wicca is the same. You might share 100% of the beliefs, but until you have been 'initiated' by a priest or Pristess, you will not truily be wiccea.

Self dedication? Personally I don't feel it's valid. Yes, you may have dedicated yourself to your concept of the Lord and Lady or some other God/goddess. And yes that may give you great peace and fulfilment. But that still does not make you wiccea.
No more than self baptisim would wash away a christians sins. If it did all you would hear at the public pool was 'praise Jesus' coming from the deep end.

I disagree with you 110% (though I do respect the fact that you're entitled to your opinion).

You say that only a Priest or Priestess can declare someone Wiccan. Well I disagree. Who's better qualified than the Lord & Lady themselves?

In my opinion, a person's religion should be determined by their beliefs and the way they live their lives, NOT by rituals that they may have taken place in in the past.

[moondaughter]

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. I performed a dedication to Wicca after a year and a day study period. However, the more studyign I did, the more I realized that there was indeed and line dividing Wicca and Paganism.
However, if it makes people feel more devoted to their faith and beliefs, than no, I don't see a problem with people self-initiating themselves.
There is a problem with people who have watch Charmed or Sabrina or Harry Potter and picked up a Silver Ravenwolf book, read the first chapter and declare themselves almighty-knowers of Wicca...

[watershield]

Hey Oshun, I hear ya. I know that my little rant will never get rid of buffy. My only goal here is that buffy will read this and maybe set the books down for a moment think for them selves.

I'm an animist, though I would never claim to be a shamen. I view the gods and man as equals and do not worship any. I consider Zues, Helena and Isis my guides and they seem to be pleased in that relationship. I summon Demons as often as I summon Angles. I am not a witch, though I have been refered to as a dark mage and of late take some comfort in that naming.

Shadow_kitten, I have no doubt that you would disagree. Everyone that has self dedicated or has never been in a coven will. That's human nature. It's the old..who are you to tell me that I'm wrong. I've been doing this for X years....
But BEING WICCEA and TAKING THE NAME OF WICCEA are two very different things.
Please try to understand what I'm really saying...
You have christians and Catholics. A Chistian is anyone who might accept the word of the God of Abraham, Christ as savior and the Bible as the word of the lord.
But a Catholic is a person that believe all of that but has been accepted into a church with specific ritual and degrees of authority, and more. All Catholics are christians but not all chistans are catholics.
A pagan is a person who may repect and revier nature, give homage to the lord and lady and hold sacred the wheel of the year.
But a wiccan is a person who believes all of that but who has been accepted into a community or group that has specific ritual and degrees of authority, and more. All Wiccians are pagans but not all pagans are wiccians.
All I'm really saying is that I was there when wicca came to North America. I was there when the first covens were being born and the dogma of wicca was being recorded. What I see today, with the self dedications and the solitaries, etc... is not "wicca".

[Shadow_Kitten]

Jul 7, 2008 5:23:38 GMT 1 watershield said:

Shadow_kitten, I have no doubt that you would disagree. Everyone that has self dedicated or has never been in a coven will. That's human nature. It's the old..who are you to tell me that I'm wrong. I've been doing this for X years....

When did I ever say that you were wrong? I specifically said that you're entitled to your opinion & then went on to state my own.

Jul 7, 2008 5:23:38 GMT 1 watershield said:

Please try to understand what I'm really saying...
You have christians and Catholics. A Chistian is anyone who might accept the word of the God of Abraham, Christ as savior and the Bible as the word of the lord.
But a Catholic is a person that believe all of that but has been accepted into a church with specific ritual and degrees of authority, and more. All Catholics are christians but not all chistans are catholics.
A pagan is a person who may repect and revier nature, give homage to the lord and lady and hold sacred the wheel of the year.
But a wiccan is a person who believes all of that but who has been accepted into a community or group that has specific ritual and degrees of authority, and more. All Wiccians are pagans but not all pagans are wiccians.
All I'm really saying is that I was there when wicca came to North America. I was there when the first covens were being born and the dogma of wicca was being recorded. What I see today, with the self dedications and the solitaries, etc... is not "wicca".

I do understand what your saying, really, I do. I just don't completely agree with it.

Question: Would you consider someone who's been accepted into ANY coven to be Wiccan? Or does it have to be a specific tradition? For example, if someone made their own eclectic coven or their own tradition and I joined that coven, would you consider me to be Wiccan then? Or would it have to be a Gardenerian coven or something like that? (This is purely hypothetical)


PS - I've heard a lot of people here talk about the 'dogma' of Wicca. I don't understand, what do you think is dogmatic about Wicca? One of the reasons I love Wicca so much is the fact that it isn't dogmatic! No offense to those who think it is dogmatic, of course. Just curious.

[watershield]

Hypothetical or not, you asked the question so.....

In my opinion Gardner founded wicca and as such the Gardnarian tradition is the only trad that truly is wicca.
All of the other traditions are results of disagreements in the fundamental teaching and ego's.

I guess that it's again along the lines of the church.
You have catholics and Protestants.
You have wiccians and neo wiccians

Gardner was THE original wiccea.....full stop! Every other trad after that is just a false image or personal interpretation.

[oshun11]

WS that is very interesting. I've been meaning to look into animism for a while, but thank you for answering me because I was curious. I guess I view all of the gods as my guides but I partner with them, I don't worship. I pay homage (is that the word?) give due respect, offerings, and I honor any and all that I work with (generally just the Goddess and God). Don't like to say worship though. That word makes me think of getting down on my hands and knees and catering to the very cruel whim of some almighty being... I know that worship in itself isn't bad though, it's just leftover remnants of a past religion I was a part of once :-)

Shadow Kitten, I think the person doing the initation/dedication ceremony has to have been ordained (is that the right word) by someone else who has gone through a legitimate dedication by a legitimate coven. But I wouldn't take my word for it this is just my guestimation.