Wicca

[Shadow_Kitten]

Jul 7, 2008 9:42:27 GMT 1 watershield said:

Hypothetical or not, you asked the question so.....

. . . yeah, I know I did. I only said 'hypothetical' because I didn't want you to think that I was actually joining a coven, lol. Though I would love to, given the opportunity!

Jul 7, 2008 9:42:27 GMT 1 watershield said:

In my opinion Gardner founded wicca and as such the Gardnarian tradition is the only trad that truly is wicca.
All of the other traditions are results of disagreements in the fundamental teaching and ego's.

I guess that it's again along the lines of the church.
You have catholics and Protestants.
You have wiccians and neo wiccians

Gardner was THE original wiccea.....full stop! Every other trad after that is just a false image or personal interpretation.

I agree of course that Gerald Gardner is the founder of Wicca but I REALLY don't agree that Gardnerian Wicca is the only true Wiccan tradition and that every other tradition is nothing but a false image of Gardnerian Wicca.

I think we'll just have to agree to diagree. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject, it was interesting to read.

[Jen]

Wicca is dogmatic - all religions are.
The whole concept of a religion, any religion, is that there are rules and doctrines which are followed and carried out to the latter.

I think anyone who follows a religion can quite simply call themselves a follower of that religion without going through a ritual or dedication.
To believe in Christ you are a Christian - it doesn't matter that you haven't been baptised. The same is true of wicca.
If you follow the principles and beliefs of wicca then you are wiccan.
It's really not complicated at all.

[juliaki]

Wicca, by the way it was designed, was a religion of clergy.... with no laity.

To declare one's self a member of laity in a religion that doesn't recognize it, include it, or have any purpose for it is like putting a raincoat on a duck. Even if you can do it, why would you want to?

Because Wicca is also oathbound, I'm not sure how anyone on the outside can say they are following the principles and beliefs of Wicca if they don't know what they are. (I'm guessing they assume that the outer court material is actually what is practiced on the inside?)

Just my thoughts... I decided when given the opportunity between moving toward initiation in a Wiccan tradition and in a non-Wiccan tradition that Wicca was not for me, so my knowledge of the innards of Wicca is only slightly beyond what is standard outer court material and not "expert" opinion in the least.

[Heka]

This is very interesting debate. WS you put forward so wonderful arguments (when was the wedding date set for honey?

now for my two cents...... (heheHE!!!)

when i first started out around this joint and with the wicca thing, i thought 'yay no dogma! no rules! happy freedom! wicca!' and i preformed a self dedication to wicca (btw i found my old ritual and it did say wicca, not to the 'craft'). but ive learnt from people that arent wiccan, aka NOT scott cunningham etc, that wicca has just as many rules and dogma as everything else.

I agree with you WS when you say that christ believers are christian but to be catholic etc you have to be baptised into that religion, so it neatly follows that you are a witch/pagan if you rever nature and work with (note: not worship) a lord/lady and a wiccan if you are initiated (note: not dedicated) into a wiccan coven by a wiccan priest/ess.

Moondaughter Wrote: I performed a dedication to Wicca after a year and a day study period. However, the more studyign I did, the more I realized that there was indeed and line dividing Wicca and Paganism.

I did this as well. i set a date from where i would start studying, the kept studying and realised that there was still so much more to learn, though in wicca, how much you have to learn is much les than what i realised i wanted to learn. and unlike you i still went a head with the dedication

WaterSheild Wrote: I view the gods and man as equals and do not worship any. I consider Zues, Helena and Isis my guides and they seem to be pleased in that relationship. I summon Demons as often as I summon Angles. I am not a witch, though I have been refered to as a dark mage and of late take some comfort in that naming.

This is what im slowly becoming (not an animist) but i now see the verious gods and goddesses as guides and helpers, rather than almightys that should be worshiped. i ask their help with my life and have conversations with them. I dont summon demons cos i dont summon angels cos i dont believe that their seperate things. everything is just energy (im terrible with my choice of words btw, Goth would know that ) and i do call myself a witch cos its just cool sounding and fits. i gues i could say im spiritual, but that doesnt have the same ring to it

I dont know about gardnerian wicca being the only wicca. sure he founded it so it should, in some ways, be the only one. now im not sure about my hisotry so correct me if im wrong, but this would be like christianity. there was roman cathlosicm first and there was disagreements so more different sects were formed. same thing happened in judaism and islam etc. and yet every sect still believes themselves to be christian. wouldnt that be the same as wicca? gardnerian came first, there was disaggrements, and different sects were formed. but they are all wiccea, like the RC's prodestants, 7 day adventsts etc are all christian.

Am i on the right track here?

Julaiki Wrote: Because Wicca is also oathbound, I'm not sure how anyone on the outside can say they are following the principles and beliefs of Wicca if they don't know what they are. (I'm guessing they assume that the outer court material is actually what is practiced on the inside?)

even as oath bound as wicca is, i dont think theres that much 'inside' stuff left. people make money out of selling secrets so its very likely that people would have.

was that more than two cents??? probably, but i like to talk :[

[oshun11]

^^ Wasn't there some cotroversy at first with many of the authors who came out of the closet and decided to write about the inner workings and occult teachings of their, until that point, secret practices, tenats, deties, and writings? I half remember reading this somewhere, but I've read so many books and internet sources that I wouldn't know where to backtrack to find and quote this idea for you...
Just something I thought was an interesting tidbit, lol.

[Shadow_Kitten]

Jul 9, 2008 1:14:23 GMT 1 Heka said:

when i first started out around this joint and with the wicca thing, i thought 'yay no dogma! no rules! happy freedom! wicca!' and i preformed a self dedication to wicca (btw i found my old ritual and it did say wicca, not to the 'craft'). but ive learnt from people that arent wiccan, aka NOT scott cunningham etc, that wicca has just as many rules and dogma as everything else.

When I first became Wiccan I felt the same way - I still feel that way, for the most part. But after discussing this with all of you I'm not sure how I feel.

Jul 9, 2008 1:14:23 GMT 1 Heka said:

WaterSheild Wrote: I view the gods and man as equals and do not worship any. I consider Zues, Helena and Isis my guides and they seem to be pleased in that relationship. I summon Demons as often as I summon Angles. I am not a witch, though I have been refered to as a dark mage and of late take some comfort in that naming.

This is what im slowly becoming (not an animist) but i now see the verious gods and goddesses as guides and helpers, rather than almightys that should be worshiped. i ask their help with my life and have conversations with them. I dont summon demons cos i dont summon angels cos i dont believe that their seperate things. everything is just energy (im terrible with my choice of words btw, Goth would know that ) and i do call myself a witch cos its just cool sounding and fits. i gues i could say im spiritual, but that doesnt have the same ring to it

That's sort of like me. Like you, I see the God and Goddess as guides and helpers rather than almightys (I detest this word being used to describe the Lord & Lady - they're not beings that look down on us, they're apart of us!) but I worship Them. I'm not sure whether or not I think we're equal to the divine - I think that we probably are. I think that the Lord & Lady see us as their equals but we don't always see ourselves as their equals, you know? Some of us, anyway.

This discussion has really given me A LOT to think about. I honestly don't know - am I Wiccan/Witch, or am I a Witch with Wiccan ideals? I've always been more comfortable calling myself a Witch because to me, it's just so much more empowering and magickal. But I agree with ALL the Wiccan ideals - so wouldn't that make me Wiccan? I'm very confused. I really need to meditate on this, maybe then I'll find some answers. My beliefs haven't changed, I'm just not sure if I'm labelling myself correctly.

[Heka]

id probably say your still wiccan. though thats your path to decide.

[Heka]

oh and Oshun, i havent heard anything like that. maybe,but not that i can remember of the top of my head

[aurawitch]

What if we were to equate Wicca with Christianity and the different subgroups with the different traditions? Would that work? I agree with Juliaki that you could not call yourself a Gardnerian or member of any other tradition without initiation through the group. That's where the oathbound part comes in, just like you can't just be Catholic or Baptist or Pentacostal without some recognition from these traditions. I see less of a reason why you can't be a Wiccan outside of any of these traditions, just like you can be a Christian without considering yourself a member of a certain subsect. Yes, I know, Gardner came up with Wicca, but really you might also argue that he mostly filled in the holes where things got lost through the burning times?

Harry

[Shadow_Kitten]

Very good explanation, Harry! Kudos!

I agree; I don't think that anyone can call themselves a member of a particular tradition without being initiated but I do think that Witches may may be Wiccans outside of these traditions. Just like Christians can be Christians without being part of a particular subsect. That's how I've always seen Wicca, anywho.

[wulfeage]

RANT: Dont get going off of the deep end people its just my opinion! ;D ;D ;D It is not meant for any particular individual on this board!!!!!

I have not read all the thread but having read Oshun saying:

I... *whispers* self dedicated and everything... and... *barely a whisper* I read Teen Witch... three times...

There is this syndrome throughout the Pagan community that self dedication is in some way looked down upon? This does stem from the original one-up-man-ship Gardnerians and those that pretend to be Wiccan.

The facts are:

You can not be Gardnerian unless you are initiated into a Gardnerian coven!

To be Wiccan in Gerald's sense is exactly the same!

"REAL" Gardnerians (in reality Valientians as she re-wrote 80% of the book) are few and far between there is a sense of "The Kings New Clothes" flourishing amongst the control freaks (Those wannabees professing to be initiated)with those of a solitary/self dedicated path being seen as something inferior.... Well they ain't inferior!
And being initiated ain't all its cracked up to be?

No greater power
No greater understanding
No greater connection
No direct route to deity
just an egotistical sense of "I am considerable better than you because I am/say that I am initiated"

There are considerably more self dedicated solitaries out there than any other tradition so they must be doing something right.

RANT OVER

[Jen]

Great rant wulfeage and I am inclined to agree with you.

[Shadow_Kitten]

Of course you can't be Gardnerian without having been initiated - I've never heard anyone claim to be self-dedicated Gardnerian. But do you think that you can be Wiccan without having been initiated into a coven? For example, do you think that someone can be an eclectic Wiccan?

[Jen]

I certainly think you can be wiccan without having been initiated - yes.

[watershield]

A wiccian who has been initiated and a coven member will tell you no.
Some one who has never been in a coven and has learned everything from books will say yes.