Wicca

[aurawitch]

Yeah but even those who are members of traditions and are in covens are only following rituals and dogma someone else made up a while ago, just like Gardner pulled stuff from different places. If you are going to argue along those lines then Wicca is not Wicca but an amalgamate of different rituals and spiritual lines. Just because someone came along and gave it a new name makes it no less that.
In my experience, when people insist that other people are not Wiccans they really only participate in a power struggle and hope that their tradition will, in the long run, be the only "real" one. I would argue that the Lord and the Lady give less than a shit about whether someone is self initiated or can trace a line to Gardner. What I think is much more important is their devotion and their willingness to work on learning the craft, be it through books, face-to-face instruction, or trying things themselves. (I'm not talking about any people on this board, I'm just making general observations about what I have encountered). Just my 0.02c

Harry

[watershield]

You can call yourself a pagan and believe in he lord and lady
Just as you can call yourself a christian and believe in christ

But a christian is not a Catholic unless baptised in that church.
Just as a pagan is not a wiccian unless initiated in the trad.

So what who established the tradition and it's beliefs. The same can be said about any organized faith.
There are lots of people who have "self dedicated" and call themselves wiccians. However I and a great many others do noy accept them as wiccians. To us, they are pagans with similar beliefs.
Many years ago, I was a coven member and was initiated into wicca. But I left that path and my beliefs have changed so I do not call myself a wiccian. But I still respect the process, ritual, and structure of wicca.

[Shadow_Kitten]

Great post yet again, Harry! As if the Lord and Lady care about whether or not you belong to a specific trad. There are eclectic Wiccans out there who are just as dedicated to Wicca as Gardnerian Wiccans are.

Jul 28, 2008 3:03:14 GMT 1 watershield said:

A wiccian who has been initiated and a coven member will tell you no.

Not true! I've encountered MANY coven members who believe that you don't have to be initiated to be Wiccan - some of them have even been Gardnerians. Great people, open minded people.

[juliaki]

Most of what you say I agree with, although there are a couple exceptions. (And from my viewpoint, I have no problem with the idea or practice of a self-dedication, but I do not think it is possible for a person to initiate themselves.)

Here's the specifics that I find that I differ from your view on...

Jul 26, 2008 11:42:55 GMT 1 @wulfeage said:

No greater power
No greater understanding
No greater connection
No direct route to deity
just an egotistical sense of "I am considerable better than you because I am/say that I am initiated"

There are considerably more self dedicated solitaries out there than any other tradition so they must be doing something right.

Regarding "no greater power", there are some things that happen through the initiation process to align an individual with certain lineaged contacts. Without those contacts, to me a line wouldn't be worth initiating into! But having those inner contacts does bring about an ability to cause change in some more potent ways than working alone.

Regarding "no greater understanding".... I was a solitary practitioner for about a decade, and had read well over a hundred books on various Craft topics and practices. I had worked through rites on my own and attended public rites. Once I initiated (non-Wiccan, but a TIW line), there were so many "a-ha" moments that happened. Things I had read many times in my studies that I suddenly "got". This was because of some of the experiences I had leading up to and through the initiation process.

Regarding "no greater connection", it depends on what you're talking about connection to. Having a whole new family certainly brought a greater connection than I had when I was a "Craft orphan".

Regarding "no direct route to deity", because the gods of the Wica aren't out there for "public awareness", my feeling is that building connections with those deities that aren't known by the masses would give a direct route to a deity that isn't recognized, honored, and accessible by people who don't know that it is there.

To me, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding on both sides about the "better" bit. In essence, what someone who has gone through the rigors of a traditional initiation is saying is that they've been through something that a solitary practitioner has not. It isn't a case of better, but it is a case of being put through something that really forges the individual. It would be like someone who jogs around the block every morning telling a champion marathon runner that they are both the "same type of runner". You can imagine that the marathon runner might be a bit skeptical. It isn't that the marathon runner believes they are a better runner... but they have been tested in ways that the casual jogger has no desire to experience and no training to survive.

I'm also not a believer that just because there's more of something out there that makes it better. Millions of people watch American Idol. That doesn't make the show good.

[Jen]

Jul 28, 2008 12:33:12 GMT 1 juliaki said:

To me, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding on both sides about the "better" bit. In essence, what someone who has gone through the rigors of a traditional initiation is saying is that they've been through something that a solitary practitioner has not. It isn't a case of better, but it is a case of being put through something that really forges the individual.

But this is the same case for a solitary practitioner is it not?

[juliaki]

Jul 29, 2008 19:23:01 GMT 1 Jen said:

Jul 28, 2008 12:33:12 GMT 1 juliaki said:

To me, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding on both sides about the "better" bit. In essence, what someone who has gone through the rigors of a traditional initiation is saying is that they've been through something that a solitary practitioner has not. It isn't a case of better, but it is a case of being put through something that really forges the individual.

But this is the same case for a solitary practitioner is it not?

In 99% of the cases, no. Keep in mind, almost all people who go through traditional initiations have been solitary practitioners (some for years or decades). In some cases, it is required for a person to spend time as a solitary practitioner before they can consider a traditional initiation because it is important to learn the lessons of solitary practice before traditional initiation is an option.

[Heka]

WS, as much as i love you honey im going to have to dissagree with THIS:

Just as a pagan is not a wiccian unless initiated in the trad

paganism and wicca are not as synonomous as christianity and cathlosism. when someone thinks pagan, they dont automatically think wicca, but when someone things catholic they automatically think christian and vise versa.

Some people dont even know that wiccans exist, whereas just about everyone knows paganism is out there. many pagans are not wiccans, some dont even consider wicca a pagan religion.

and wicca isnt an individual tradition. wicca is the main thingo (want of another word) and it has trads in it, like christianity is the top dog and it has different sects

[watershield]

Wicca is a religion that history gives credit to Gerald Gardner for formalizing sometime around 1952. As in all religions, not everyone will agree with all aspects of the teachings so break away traditions were created. However these remain with the frame work as established by Gardner hense remain wiccian and are recignised by a number of governments with full religious status. Ray Buckland is credited for bringing Gardnarian Wicca to North America however ever he became disenchanted with various aspects of it and went on to found Saex Wica.

Over the years a number of authors have found the subject of wicca very good for generating sales. Many books have been written on the subject while the knowledge of the author remains doubtful.

One of the most popular authors was Scott Cunningham. It could be said that he was instimental with many people today having the view that self dedications are all thats needed to be wiccian. However Scott was never initiated into a recignised tradition. Rather, he was a member of an eclectic coven and never learned the workings of the inner circle. His view on what is or is not wicca was the point of view of one who only had limited knowledge.

In recent years, more authors have come out with books with all sorts of crap. Vast lists of spells, variations of Tarot decks with special meanings for their new cards, just to name a couple. Lets not forget those like Silver Ravenwolf. In my opinion she is a fake. She's got a web site that promotes her member to share there information and give her the authority to reproduce it (or it did when I was last on it) Far to many books have come out, written by people who know little or nothing themselves and based on the stories or information provided by others of questionable experience. And it's unfortunate as this is the stuff most newbies are first expossed to and believe to be true.

I look at it this way. Any one can believe in Christ and if you do your generally refered to as a christian. There are a large number of christians who happen to be baptised in the Catholic Church. Not every christian is catholic and not every christian can become catholic unless the learn the inner workings of the church and are baptised in front of the congregation. No such thing as self dedication or self baptism. There are rules to be followed.

Same applies to pagans. Many people have a faith and belief in something other than christ as the only saviour. They may believe in the lord and lady or some other concept of the devine. And a large number of pagans belong to Wicca. They studied the inner workings of an organised faith and were baptised (initiated) in front of the congregation (coven). No self dedication or self initiation can replace that. It's a teaching and ritual experience you can not get from a book alone and no number of authors out to make a buck will change it.

Ok, you read the books and did the dedication. Your convinced your wiccea and are insulted that anyone would attempt to say other wise. Weather your wiccian or not it remains you are pagan. You have your belief in a divine............so why is the lable so damned important?

I'm not trying to say I've got all the answers on this topic but, I was initiated into wicca in 1968. After a while I lost interest in the repetitive formal process and some of the other things within the coven, and left. That being said, I still respect what it is to be Wiccea, to be initiated. And I mean this with no disrespect......unless you've been initiated, you are not wiccea. You have been mislead by someone out to make money more so than provide valid information.

[Jen]

Great post WS - and when you put it like that, I tend to agree in a way.

BUT I still think anyone can be wiccan WITHOUT being initiated and gone through all the pomp and ceremony.
It might define a difference between an initiated wiccan and an uninitiated wiccan - but so freaking what.
Doesn't make the one less valid in my eyes.

Anyone who can dedicate themselves to a certain religion certainly has the right to say they are a follower and practitioner of that religion.
And no-one has a right to say otherwise.
And I agree - why are labels so damned important?
What is it with our incessant need to define ourselves for the comfort of others?

OK - that should be another topic.

[juliaki]

Jul 31, 2008 9:47:27 GMT 1 watershield said:

However Scott was never initiated into a recignised tradition. Rather, he was a member of an eclectic coven and never learned the workings of the inner circle. His view on what is or is not wicca was the point of view of one who only had limited knowledge.

Without violating oaths and such, I do know people who can vouch for Scott's initiation and traditional Wiccan lineage. It witnessed and carried out and he was properly prepared. Now I'm not sure that he did anything within that Wiccan line beyond his 1* (I've never asked), but at least he did have his 1* under his cords. Later on, he did a lot of work in a more eclectic setting.

I agree with a lot of the rest that you've said, but wanted to clear that up a bit.

[juliaki]

Jul 31, 2008 11:47:57 GMT 1 Jen said:

BUT I still think anyone can be wiccan WITHOUT being initiated and gone through all the pomp and ceremony.

Absolutely, because pomp and ceremony are very minor aspects of initiation and not what makes the initiation...well, an initiation. Even if it were potentially possible to be Wiccan without initiation (and I'm not convinced that's the case), I can't imagine why someone would want to do so, unless they really don't understand what initiation is all about.

[watershield]

Ok.... Jack Sprate wrote a book about becoming an astronaut
Jack was never an astronaut but he talked to many of them.
Jack is of the opinion that all it takes to be an astronaut is an interest in the stars and he can even name a dozen or so.

Gee, I think that sound about right. I guess I'm an astronaut too!
I talked to NASA but they told me I'm not an astronaut because I don't have the training! How rude of them.........

(Juliaki...in a couple of Scotts early books he actually stated that he was never initiated into Gardnarian wicca or any of the major trads. Rather he was introduced to several eclectic covens by a girl he met in High school and initiated into one of them. So, I'm only going by what he himself wrote)

[juliaki]

Aug 1, 2008 0:20:50 GMT 1 watershield said:

(Juliaki...in a couple of Scotts early books he actually stated that he was never initiated into Gardnarian wicca or any of the major trads. Rather he was introduced to several eclectic covens by a girl he met in High school and initiated into one of them. So, I'm only going by what he himself wrote)

I can think of quite a few reasons why he wouldn't mention where he was initiated for his BTW lineage. Heck, the trad I'm with is fairly public, and I don't publicly announce where I've been made! (But if you're curious, send a PM and I'll let you know where to go to hang out with the BTWs to discuss conversations that aren't for general public consumption about things like that.)

[sugarcharmz]

How embarrassing.. I was one of those Buffies. I didn't know that Wicca was such a deep religion. I thought that it was just another form of Pagan (like.. same thing, only with more spell casting, magic, and all that). I did drop "being wiccan" before I read this, but it was only because I "didn't wanna do spells all the time."

On the bright side, I did learn something. =) Thank you, all.

[lisa]

Okay...my two cents...

WS...I see your point...people lucky enough to find a coven to identify with, learn under, initiate in, become a member of certainly and unequivocally are "Witches"...and I can see, why, after doing all of that and earning their title, they would not accept self-dedication as a valid alternative. Books alone cannot replace what a coven can offer.

And, I would agree with you completely, if and only if...all humans had access to covens they could identify with, learn under, initiate into, and develop with...

I was not, and still would not be comfortable joining a coven simply to validate my beliefs or their opinion of said beliefs...if the people were not people I could share such an intimate part of my being with...my spirituality.

I would have loved to "find" a group of like-minded witches to share with and learn from, and grow with...to be a part of...but it did not happen...

What I was able to find was another solitaire witch, who guided me on my way, until it was my time to walk alone.

Since, my self-initiation, I have lived everyday by the "rules" and my life has changed dramatically for the better...I used to cast circles and perform spells...because I loved the ritual and connection to the God and Goddess. I no longer need to perform the actual ritual...I simply am able to bend energy at will...I cannot explain it...does this make me a witch...nope...it just saves me time and candles...

I never got as "deep in" as some others, as probably most on this board...but, I never lost my way, either...although I have felt very alone at times...not having anyone to "share" with...

I truly envy those who were brought up in this path and/or who have the physical connections to people they can trust, who feel apart of something amazing...

But, if "those" people don't want to accept me as a Wiccan because I do not subscribe to their "Way"...and if they want to say I am not a real witch because my initiation was not valid in their eyes...I'm okay with that because ultimately, it's not their opinion that matters. Their opinion will not change what happens in my daily life, and their opinion will not change what happens when this life is over...

On the bright side...at least not being accepted as Wiccan does not mean my soul is going to hell...