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Post by redwolf on Jun 14, 2009 3:32:36 GMT 1
Am I the only one to notice? What with the economic situation, politics, the international tensions we live under and the pressure, pressure, negative pressure we are all being forced to live under finally getting to everyone? Even in California we are feeling a lot more than a 'pinch', it is near impossible to find books or reliable resources for study. Shops and public groups are closing at fantastic speeds. And there is a sense of 'its going to get worse' creeping in. Times like that really do tire everyones soul, and convictions. Who will leave the Craft? In fear? Or lack of faith? Or disappointment?
Or fear?
Read history, when times are really tough the odd, the outsiders, the ones who were popular and entreatingly different in times of plenty are targeted. Sometimes out of fear or the desire to strike at someone, anyone to vent pain or frustration or anger.
Is it time to hide what we know? Again? If nothing else it will show which of are are true believers. And those true believers have better start thinking about surviving not only as themselves but as pagans/witches/druids/ or whatever term one uses.
Is this the time to start to get ready to hide?
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Post by Jen on Jun 15, 2009 13:33:20 GMT 1
Is it time to hide what we know? Again? If nothing else it will show which of are are true believers. And those true believers have better start thinking about surviving not only as themselves but as pagans/witches/druids/ or whatever term one uses. Is this the time to start to get ready to hide? NO! Pagans and heathens of the world have worked hard to be recognised and taken seriously, well...more seriously than before anyway. Any retreating would be pointless and achieve nothing. |
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Post by PaganOne on Jun 15, 2009 22:38:02 GMT 1
I'm not "out there" much in that I really know what goes on in the world, but I rather think free thinking is becoming the way of the world and the future. I think more people are giving up religion than turning to it.
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Post by redwolf on Jun 16, 2009 0:34:55 GMT 1
Both of you should know, this free thinking and openness is a product of good times and leasure.
When those two are gone? What then?
When the main topic is how bad things are? Remember the Misery Index? Reading about the Depression? In Germany? In Russia? Those are the times when scapegoating and repressions begin. Do you REALLY think there are enough Pagans to stand up to that?
To even defend themselves? And how? The vast majority are so pacifist they can't think in terms of survival when they are being hunted. They can't imagine self defense requiring more than the threat of a law suit and a stern letter to the editor.
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Post by watershield on Jun 16, 2009 8:42:41 GMT 1
It's different in the UK than it is in the US.
The States is made up of a lot of fundamentalists who can get very extreme. If I don't know what it is or why it is...kill it! At least then it can't hurt me.
Paganism in the states has made very little head way. Yes, the military has now recognized Wicca as a faith, but that does not mean the majority of the people have.
But, no. It's not time to go into hiding. But why the need to tell everyone what you are. If your around people you really don't know all that well, why even discuss it?
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Post by prettyfull on Jun 16, 2009 16:15:45 GMT 1
Hide!?! Not in this life time. I am who I am. Practiced since I was a child and had no name...i will not stop now.
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Post by redwolf on Jun 16, 2009 22:20:23 GMT 1
It seems as if everyone thinks no precautions should be taken. Very well, this is one of those things were every answer is the right one for the individual so good luck to us all.
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Post by Jen on Jun 17, 2009 9:47:15 GMT 1
Precautions for what Redwolf - elaborate more....
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Post by PaganOne on Jun 17, 2009 23:42:13 GMT 1
I for one am absolutely not a Pagan pacifist. I am not as radical as I see a lot of Derrick Jensen fans to be, but I certainly understand the need for billions of people to die in order for there to be any hope for a new direction for the human animal. Would I play a part in making that happen? Perhaps.
Just a note... I am not sure I care for the term Pagan anymore in reference to my belief system. I call myself an Animist these days. Pagan often leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I honestly don't know why.
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Post by prettyfull on Jun 18, 2009 0:04:48 GMT 1
Redwolf, I am like Hedge, I do not see what precautions I should take. I am who I am. If people do not like me that is not my problem it is theirs. Why should I hide myself to make someone else comfortable? That makes no sense to me. Do I go around telling everyone I am Wiccan? nope! But those who do know don't care and we are talking some very strict Christains.
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Post by watershield on Jun 18, 2009 0:32:13 GMT 1
Paganone....looks like you've taken a page from my book. I've referring to myself as an animist for sometime now.
I don't think I've ever called myself a witch and I agree, the term "pagan" has taken on a meaning of it's own in the last 5 years or so.
Redwolf....have you had a bad experience recently that would make you consider going to ground? I know roughly where your located so I wouldn't think the social environment is detrimental to you. If you were in the southern US I might think differently.
What is it your trying to say?
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Post by kolohe on Jun 18, 2009 23:48:03 GMT 1
I refer to myself as a pantheist if I really have to use a label. Then the conversation turns to what that actually is since most people don't know. With "witch" or "pagan" people think they know even though they actually don't.
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Post by redwolf on Jun 19, 2009 7:35:45 GMT 1
prettyfull, watershield, hedge I read. I read a lot of history and what I notice is, while there are periods we refer to as Golden Ages of arts, sciense, tolerence and social development they are followed by Darks Ages of intolerence, murder, tyranny, repression, scapegoating. I also read what is happening in the world and I believe the pendulum is starting to swing away from open to repressive by events large and small here and abroad. And I am not talking about people, you can feel very secure in your safety, all it takes is becoming 'normal'(Christian, Jewish, Islamic, so on) again. But what we say we believe in NOW, that is not safe. Shouldn't steps be taken to prevent its loss? A human being can save themselves, but a thougth? A belief? Will it have to all be re-discovered, re-defined, re-invented all over again? The more that happens the further the end product moves from the truth. The further it moves from the real belief in the old Gods and that should be protected.
It just CAN'T happen here to US? Sure, and it couldn't happen to the Jews, Pagans, Moors in Spain before the Inquisition or the Arminians in Turkey just before WWI, Christians in Rome when Nero was Emperor, Indians in Mezo-North America in the 18th century and on. Or the Jews in that bastion of culture, intellegence, civility, law and peace, Germany of the 1930's.
But no one thinks seems to think so, very well,,,,.
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Post by watershield on Jun 20, 2009 6:58:43 GMT 1
Well, we all know that the importance of learning history is that it always repeats. If we haven't learned the lessons of the past, we are doomed to repeat them or get caught by them.
And I think you will find that in every conflict some religious group has always been a target or a tool to promote the political views of either one or both sides.
But if we look at the current events what we see is a growing Muslim population and a declining Christian population. It's these types of imbalances that supports the concept that "God is on our side" and provides the confidence to act militarily.
Since the creation of Israel, war has existed between the West and the fundamentalist Arab world. Initially, Britain was the priority target as they pressed the UN to establish the Jewish state. However, the US has become Israels strongest supporter and thereby Islams greatest enemy.
Attacks on US targets have been going on since the 70's, but the US never had any major targets to go after until Iraq invaded Kuwait. In response, Bush Sr. had the excuse to attack Islam and Bush Jr. has continued to attack.
This war on Islam, camouflaged as a war on terrorism has only started and has yet to really heat up to it's full potential.
So, depending on where you live, if your Christian or Muslim, maybe you do want to go underground. (or at least devise an escape route)
There is no doubt that any one regardless of belief can become collateral damage. While I don't think that the average "pagan" need to worry about being a prime target, I agree that there is little reason to draw attention to yourself as being different is wise.
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Post by redwolf on Jun 20, 2009 16:30:10 GMT 1
I asked if we as Pagans, or whatever anyone wants of label themsevles for whatever reasons, should not consider taking steps to protect not ourselves as individuals but what we believe in. I asked that because I think it could be a very real issue.
As for history, the fighting in the Middle East has been going of almost since the dawn of recorded history(White Papers, Balfor Declarations, crusades, jihads, conquests, feuds and religious revelations not withstanding) and if it was not Arabs/Egyptians/Hitties/Phillistines killing Jews it was Jews killing Jews, Arabs/etc. killing Arabs/etc., Muslims killing Muslims and ever possible combination BEFORE Europeans got involved. These religious excuses are just that, excuses. After a few years of it, it got to be a bore.
And at the moment, I am not interested. If you want to talk it over at a later time or place, fine. There is a professional issue I have about it we can talk over. Having spent over a quater century working in and with the military about war fighting and we can hash it out on that level if it is your pleasure. But my question is on a spiritual, ethical topic not military, political.
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