Darker Magic

[starhawk]

Hi guys I have been having a few conversations with people and it got around to the darker side of the craft and I just thought that I would throw this one on the floor to see what you all thought.

If you were being attacked on a psychic or astral level how far would you go to to defend yourself and your own? Would you use something a bit dark for protection or even to hit back if all else had failed.

Do you think it is a good idea to have some understanding of the darker side of things.

An interesting point here Hereditary witches often work a little darker than most wiccans are comfortable with when needs must.

[watershield]

Witchcraft" or the ability to manipulate the energies around us has been with us since the dawn of time.
Wicca, on the other hand is what, 50 or 60 years old.
I'm not surprised that hereditary witches have fewer reservations toward the dark side.

The rede and the rule of three are wicca concepts. In part brought about when witchcraft was illegal as a means to give an impression that wiccans could not do any harm and were there to aid and assist others.

For the most part, I think that may be true. Most Wiccans are what can be referred to as "White Witches".
However, it has been my experience that there are some wiccan covens that do lean to the dark side and intentionally attempt works of chaos.

Some years ago, I participated in a Sabbath with a so called Wiccan coven in Vancouver. This was on the eve of the comet Kahotech (spelling) passing the earth. During the preparations, the coming ritual was explained to me and it became evident that their intent was less than a positive one. After chanting and meditating skyclad around the circle, they would sacrifice a goat at the alter. The blood was to be collected and some drank. Then each would use the blood to write the given rune of the members upon each other and while asking Kahotech to grant them their "hearts desire", they would have group sex.

Not the kind of coven I anticipated, so I left.
Later that night I was attacked and I countered. Strongly. I've never seen or felt them since.

Point is, what they were doing was creating a huge negative energy wave in both their ritual and their attack on me. Science will explain that for every action there exists an equal and opposite reaction.

If a practitioner wishes to use negative energy, they must understand that there will be an equal force of positive energy "sent out" and vice versa. generally, if only one force is focused the other will tend to cancel out the desired effect.
Basically, all of us already are aware of the need to ground before doing spell work. But what are we doing?
By practice, we are focusing the negative energy "down and away" then focusing our positive energy toward our target.
To use dark magic the same rule applies, except you ground the positive energy and focus the negative toward your target.

So, do I think knowledge of both sides of magic is a good thing? I believe it's a require thing. One must understand the positive and the negative if you ever wish to understand the balance.

As a side bar, with all those wiccans out there grounding their negative energies into mother earth, might this explain the growing violence in society, the destruction of our environment, etc. ?

[Jen]

Bravo watersheild, that is the best post I have read for a long time.
There has to be an equal balance in the universe, the Yin Yang sums it up for me perfectly.
Starhawk- I never say never
I do not put a limit on the lengths I'd go to to protect me and mine.

Watersheild that is a very interesting comment you made at the end of your post and one I will spend some time pondering over

[Goth]

starhawk said:

If you were being attacked on a psychic or astral level how far would you go to to defend yourself and your own? Would you use something a bit dark for protection or even to hit back if all else had failed.

I would do what it takes. I don't see magick itself as dark or light (black or white etc), it's all about the intent behind it.

People get back, what they put out.

Just because I'm curious (nosey really!), what do you mean by 'something a bit dark'?

[starhawk]

[/quote]



Just because I'm curious (nosey really!), what do you mean by 'something a bit dark'?[/quote]

That is a good question, to define dark, as you say in most cases magic is only light or dark as the intent,

Some years ago My family were attacked by a coven and the attack was both powerful and relentless, we found a way to both defend and hit back effectively but what we used began to take a life of it's own, eventually the conflict was over but the thing we used stayed with us and resisted all efforts to banish or de activate it, eventually we succeeded but it was a temptation to keep it and to continue to use it's power.

Was this dark?

[Jen]

I think that it's safe to say, while most people won't agree with the terminology, that dark magic represents magic done to harm someone/something.
Of course, magic is neutral and is neither good or bad, but for the sake of simplicity black/dark magic = evil, white magic = good.

Take electricity for example.
Electricity is neither good or bad, it is a form of energy. I can use electricity to warm my family which would be considered a good thing, or I can use electricity to send 50,000 volts up someones arse which would be considered, in most cases, a bad thing.
Shikes!
Now I'm rambling.........................

[watershield]

Starhawk
You were attacked by shades and from the sounds of it, as a counter attack you used the positive or negative energies available to call upon a shade of your own.

In my own case, I absorbed, amplified, and reflected those energies back to those that sent them.

But the doing of what you did is neither white or dark. It just is!

For me, the universe has an order to it. How we manipulate the energy around us is referred to as magic.
For the most part, when we work our magic's, what we do has little effect on the order, and in time the order balances in any event.
Generally, magic is preformed to benefit either your self or some one close. For this reason, it is referred to as white magic.
However, when our efforts are put forth to for the purpose of harming, destroying or killing, that is what I refer to as dark magic.

White or Dark are just names however and have no real meaning. Just as there is no real good or evil there can be no real white or dark. It's all a matter of perspective and upon which side of the scale you stand. Killing a butterfly or killing a Cancer cell, which is "good" and which is "bad"? In both cases, you've killed. In all things, there is the positive and negative effect and a balance must be maintained. If not intentionally, it will seek it's own balance in the natural order.

[starhawk]

[quote
White or Dark are just names however and have no real meaning. Just as there is no real good or evil there can be no real white or dark. It's all a matter of perspective and upon which side of the scale you stand. Killing a butterfly or killing a Cancer cell, which is "good" and which is "bad"? In both cases, you've killed. In all things, there is the positive and negative effect and a balance must be maintained. If not intentionally, it will seek it's own balance in the natural order.[/quote]

I agree with you but at the time it had the feel of something so dark that would send a chill down back.

[watershield]

I understand completely.
A force of energy, so focused, will assail all of the senses.
It's interesting Starhawk. Whom ever or what ever you ticked off is still there.
Since I read your last post and while writing this, I've felt a "probe" in my direction. Not strong enough to cause harm, more like curiosity.
I just opened up a bit to draw it in and probed back. It ran. But I do sense the shade you called is not "gone" rather "contained".
If you would prefer to carry this on via direct email feel free to contact me at [e-mail]

[pixiedust]

I follow the philosophy that if you can't curse you can't cure.
If, for example a mindless phycopath killed all my loved ones, would I not be doing more harm my not stopping that person? They could kill again and my inaction could contribut to them doing so...........

[starhawk]

A good point pixiedust I don't follow the wiccan rede but I don't set out to course harm, there are times when doing nothing when attacked will course more harm than retaliating. If I allow someone to attack me and do nothing it will make them feel more confident about doing it to someone else, a sharp retaliation could make them think again.
If you are looking at something like murder then you must act.

[Goth]

pixiedust said:

I follow the philosophy that if you can't curse you can't cure.

I'd be interested to hear everybody's definition of cursing. Is a curse used to protect yourself, or harm another?

I'm not fond of the word curse, because it suggests all sorts of karmic repercussions for the 'cursor'.

This is really hard for me to explain, but bear with me LOL

Do you think it's karmically safer to do everything in your power to protect yourself, rather than harm another, for example, 'hitting back' in an indirect way?

For instance (and this is only a random example), rather than wishing for that person to become poor, wouldn't it make more sense to gain 'that promotion' for yourself?

Thing is, I don't believe in 'curses' per se, because in order for them to be successful, the recipient would have to have prior knowledge of your intentions. I believe that magick is in the belief. That's the whole point. How many times have you heard someone say, "I think I'm cursed?" it's generally, when things are going bad for them in life. If they believe that....then they are.....but it's all of their own doing.

Helping someone through an illness, or to become more successful, is slightly different to me. I have a personal rule of never crafting spells for anyone, unless they ask, or I've informed them of my intentions. If they believe with their heart and soul that's it's going to work...then it will IMO.

[watershield]

Karma is such a difficult word to truly understand. It's not a "Western" culture word and it holds so many meaning unto itself.
Karma is not fate. fate is the belief that something is preordained, hence free will is excluded. I don't believe in fate. What happens to us is a result of a series of events that we put into motion. Both the process and the result can be referred to as Karma. (the result not only for us, but the universe around us)
When I think of Karma, in my understanding, It also represents a basic plan for my life on this plain.

I have learned that before birth, a "spirit" and it's guide(s) together, review past lives to determine what needs to be learned by experience.
A new life experience is planned and the spirit is born into this plain into a physical body.
Because we do have free will, how we live that life is not preordained. We do have a "lesson plan" as such, but that does not guarantee that we will achieve the desired result.
During our "life time" we will experience both "good" and "bad" Karma. Positive and negative experiences.
These experiences will affect our goal (again karma), but each experience is unto itself a learning experience.
There is no good or bad, each experience is an opportunity to grow by some measure.

As to curses;
From my readings of posts on various boards, it seems many people agree that an attack can only occur if the target is aware of the attack and acknowledges it.
Using this logic, for the average practitioner, I guess the whole aspect of magic is... acknowledgment makes it real?
That suggests to me that they are admitting that it's all in their minds and not real.
It's the attitude that if I'm in Iraq walking in the open, if I do not acknowledge that bullet whizzing at my head, it can't hurt me. Sorry, your dead.

By experience, I can tell you that there is a source of energy that can be tapped for "good" or "evil".
It can be used for an attack, weather the target is aware or not, and the results can be devastating.
A curse is nothing more than a prolonged attack, and they do occur.

But again, this is a learning experience and will not harm your Karma (that word again)
What matters is how you maintain the balance.
For instance, if you channel energy at two targets at the same time, the balance can be maintained.

What holds almost all of us back from tapping into that energy is our morality. Morality is a self imposed set of guidelines, developed over our life time, influenced by our family and social structures. The value placed on a human life, for instance is a matter of morality.
Until we can totally set aside the moralities that have been imprinted on us from birth, we can never obtain our full potential.

[Jen]

The way I see it is this. If someone curses me, that energy is directed towards me and all I have to do is stop "feeding" it. If I accept it then I am adding to its power. If I simply don't acknowledge it, it's not going to affect me. I know this for fact from my owm personal experience. It doesn't mean the energy isn't there it just means I'm not gonna let it have any control of my life.
Using your bullet example watersheild, if I see the bullet coming and I duck then it's not gonna hit me.
Magic is real, it is very real but the practitioner of magic has to be open to raising energy and directing energy, in short - the practitioner is AWARE of energy. The opposite of awareness is ignorance so I conclude it's safe to say that if I can call up energy then I can dismiss it as well.

watershield said:

I have learned that before birth, a "spirit" and it's guide(s) together, review past lives to determine what needs to be learned by experience.
A new life experience is planned and the spirit is born into this plain into a physical body.
Because we do have free will, how we live that life is not preordained. We do have a "lesson plan" as such, but that does not guarantee that we will achieve the desired result.
During our "life time" we will experience both "good" and "bad" Karma. Positive and negative experiences.
These experiences will affect our goal (again karma), but each experience is unto itself a learning experience.
There is no good or bad, each experience is an opportunity to grow by some measure.

I agree with this. have you read The Celestine Prophecy Watersheild? If not I think you'd enjoy it immensely. ;D

[watershield]

The example of the bullet is probably the best illustration of the point.

If you are aware of the bullet coming at you, it's your option to avoid it, shield from it, reverse and send it back, or do nothing and get hit.

If your unaware of it, your going to get hit.

It remains to be seen after the fact of weather you become aware of it or not and the intent and intensity which will determine the result.


No I haven't read The Celestine Prophecy. Thanks for the suggestion. Who wrote it?