Initiation Required?

[scorn]

This seems to be a topic that is greatly debated in the wiccan community.
Those initiated into the gardnerian and alexandrian traditions say that it is fundamental to the beliefs of wicca, that wicca is a mystery religion and without the initiation the mystery isnt as strong.
The other side of that says that wicca has to evolve with the times, and one of the ways for it to evolve is for the need for initiation to become extinct.

I am wondering what your views on it are, what side do you stand on?

Blessings,
Scorn
www.valleyofevilthoughts.ning.com

[muladzh]

I am not of the neo pagan paths, so cannot explain any part of those paths, though I have opinions on many things. Initiation supposes, in my mind, a human matriculation board, to judge suitability to the path. It smacks, also in my mind, of high church christianity. I do not believe in any need for initiation into any belief - possibly a private Coven would want some level of experience, but the whole path?
In Bodach Uaine, (the path I follow) no such initiation has ever been required (over 800 yrs recorded), and I feel that such is right. We follow a path not because of permissions granted, but inner feelings, urging us to do so. It is my belief, that the Goddess initiates us, when we first express devotion to Her; I certainly don't want any mortal initiating me into anything they thought up.

[scorn]

This seems to be more of an issue among wiccans than any other pagan sub-catagory.

[mollimizz]

Nov 22, 2008 19:52:53 GMT 1 @muladzh said:

the Goddess initiates us, when we first express devotion to Her; I certainly don't want any mortal initiating me into anything they thought up.

I like this thought there Mul !
I am a solitary eclectic pagan...
When I first found Scott Cunningham's books (Wicca for One) I
went thru a self-initiation cause it felt right.
When my Goddess called to me, I did a devotional to Her. I felt
a "blanket of warmth" surround me, to me that was acceptance
enough for me.
Gentle Light
Mollimizz

[Jen]

Oooh we already have a discussion on this very interesting topic
here (clickity click)

;D

[scorn]

lol. Ive been gone, and have missed alot of conversations in 3 years.
*sighs* Time to go through the old conversations. lol.

[artemissongbird]

I too have been solitary for a number of years now and I did a self-dedication to my Goddess and God. I feel all to often the idea of initiation may be misunderstood.

It is not meant to be there to tell people they cannot be on the path they are on, and its not meant to be there to tell people what they can and cannot do. Although I take the points on board as some bad covens may actually use the initiation as an excuse to tell people what they can and cannot do!

Now I am currently joining a gardnerian and alexandrian tradition coven. They have kept the following: people with interest, outer court, dedicants, first degree initiate, second degree initiate, third degree initiate, High Priest and High Priestess.

Now their reasoning for there being this system is to allow the coven to keep its family environment. They do not want the group to be threatened by people that don't gel with the group or begin to input negative energies to the group.

They act and work as a family - when you go to their house you just help yourself to tea and food and you help each other through hard personal times.

Now to just let anyone in would ruin this and I have to agree with them. I have been to moots and in groups that just let anyone in and the results are always bad. There always seems to be someone that is not quite right and doesnt really fit with the group which then makes the whole group feel very awkward and uncomfortable - you certainly would never be able to share personal things together!

Conclusion - maybe the traditional initation can seem abit long winded but it is there to protect you and the people in the coven. Also if you really really want to be part of a coven you should be prepared for the hard work that comes with it from the beginning!

As the coven explained to me that also see joining the coven as a priesthood. To just let anyone join would take away the importance of this priesthood. It would also not display to new coven members how hard the work can be!

Its taking a long time for me to join and they are doing a Yule Ritual with myself and other people trying to join - they want to see what our energy is like in a group atmosphere and during rituals before we offically join I guess! Its hard work but should be worth it in the end! Initiation should be kept!

[marisol]

Initiation is very much a commitment Or promise to a coven. A Solitary would feel the God and
Goddess have given them their Initiation and make the same commitment or promise to the
God and Goddess. People are very contentious these days about who is better than the other. I am a solitary and I follow my own path.

[watershield]

To me, it's not a matter of being better than the next person. It is about the definition and intent of what an initiation is.

"to be admitted into a group through ritual or custom"

TO ME... there is no such thing as a self initiation. How can you have a group of one person?

By all means, you can dedicate yourself.....but not initiate.

[jadaja]

i'm a solitary eclectic wiccan. to me initiation is done by the gods when they call you to a path. the physical one is more so that other people on a similar path will acknowledge you as part of the same religion or same branch of that religion. i don't see how anyone can argue whether or not the gods can initiate us. if the gods don't initiate us when they call us the no one will know either way.some of us can't find a coven, much less one that fits us, so telling someone that they aren't wiccan cuz they aren't part of a coven or whatever is illogical. if a solitary wants to or has to learn and practice on their own and want to do a physical self-initiation then they can, they're committing themselves to their religion and gods. that's what initiation really is, committing yourself to your gods and religion, not just some group within that religion. if you leave that coven, that doesn't mean that you lose that commitment at all or if you can't be in a coven for whatever reason, doesn't make the commitment any less if you never do a physical initiation and just go with the one done by the gods when they called you.

iv'e been forced to be a solitary cuz regardless of where i live, other pagans of whatever flavor are too damned afraid of coming of of the damned broom closet. in one of the cities i lived in, i emailed one coven and never heard anything back from them. no response at all. even on witches voice i can only find 1 other pagan in my current city and i know that there are quite a few of us here.

[oldman]

This is a very old thread but the topic is one that won't end anytime soon so I thought I would add to it my point of view, for what it might be worth to others.
I was initiated into two very different traditions in my 44 years as a pagan. Between those initiations there was a time I operated, out of necessity, as a solitaire. These are my thoughts:

Initiation is the culmination of the process of joining a tradition. When you join the army you go through boot camp - an initiatory process. You are taught that the limits that you have placed upon yourself and have been placed upon you by others don't really exist. You learn to be more as a part of a group and as an individual. You get to wear a badge showing your completion of that process and learn to address those of higher rank with the appropriate respect of their station. The same is true in most initiatory practices. As a novice you only know enough to understand the hierarchy and the respect that is due others who know more than you do about that particular path. Your initiation as a first degree is a recognition that you are beginning to unlearn that which is fallible and replace it with that which is necessary to your new path.

In my current tradition the dedication ritual comes first but you are not dedicating yourself to the path or religion you are dedicating yourself to a structured year of study to find out which path you should be on. This is an important step because no two person's spirituality are the same. That is to say that no two people see and connect with deity in the same way. It is important to learn what your connection is and how you perceive it. In that year you find out that a lot of what you have learned about the world and deity may not be true. We believe that deity desires us to be their partners and that we each have a spark of deity within us. That can be a bit overwhelming for someone who has spent their life worshiping their god.

The next step in the military is AIT. Advanced Individual Training. A process that builds on your natural abilities but tunes them to the needs of the military. In Pagan faiths the same thing happens as you learn some of the "mysteries", myths and practices of the particular tradition that you have joined. As you learn to accept more and grow as an individual you learn to take on the responsibilities of your station and honor the work others have done to become who they are. You learn how and more importantly when to use the tools and abilities that you have at your disposal. You also learn how to keep from using those abilities in anger, lust, jealousy, and fear. You learn to balance your entire life. It is difficult to do on your own but it is possible to balance your finances to your needs, your work to your life outside work, your emotional life with the emotions of others and your spiritual life being included in all parts of your daily life. This is all part of the process of being in a group environment and a very big part of being in the role of a teacher or High Priest(ess). If you are not capable of living a balanced life how are you going to teach others to do so?

On help along the way: It is easy to pick and choose what you want to learn from a book which does not ask you why or to explain the meanings behind what you are learning. It is difficult to learn integrity, perseverance, and duty from a book, just as it is unlikely that you will learn what to do with the energy, or even how to recognize what kind of energy you have raised. These topics are best learned in practice with others to aid you. In most groups there is a family relationship that develops. If you need a new roof on your home those in the group will generally help in any way they can. When my home needed a new roof I was guided in what I needed to buy and I bought it and then seven members showed up to install the roof with me, to take care of the waste products from the old roof, to keep supplies coming so there were no interruptions and to fix meals to feed all of us. In turn I was able to help others in the group in matters that I had some expertise. In this kind of family interaction you build bonds that are beneficial in the rest of your life.

I am not saying that it is impossible to learn these things in other ways, just that it is an integral part of being in a group that supports your spirituality.

Contacting a group is at best a lot of work. More often than not you need to contact them at least three times to even get an answer. It is one way to weed out those with just a passing interest. Most groups are hesitant to bring a stranger into their "family" because of the disruptions that it can cause. It is often better to find public rituals or ask a group if they have a public ritual that you can take part in. Let them know that you are willing to bring a token of your intent - like candles or something else they might ask of you and if there is a meal to follow then be sure to bring something to share and bring a list of the ingredients so as to let them know whether it fits personal dietary requirements. You can also volunteer to help with setup or clean up after the ritual and meal. Be sure to bring your own eating gear and refrain from using "disposable" plates and utensils. Once you have shown that you know you have much to learn and are willing to work for it you will probably connect with one or more individuals. These people are your way in. If you show them respect and learn from them then they can recommend you as a potential member. The time spent will also tell you if the group dynamic is right for you and if their rituals are fulfilling. I went through quite a few public rituals and even sat in on some of the groups public meetings before I found my first tradition. Rather they found me. I got to be friends with an individual who, like me was attending public rituals. He later turned out to be my sponsor in my first tradition.

As a "traditionalist" I always recommend joining a group to take advantage of the training and the help in learning all aspects of a Pagan life. I have met and interacted with many solitary folks too and taught more than a few in my classes. It is the "simple" things that make the most difference. Humility, complete honesty, and admitting your limited knowledge are probably the key to being accepted by folks who are in a tradition. Calling yourself a Wiccan infers that you belong to a tradition while calling yourself a Solitary Wiccan is better and Calling yourself a Solitary Eclectic is actually the most honest of the three. Wicca is a mystery tradition and those mysteries are not published in any books in their entirety and there are even some general aspects that are fabricated to keep from revealing the oath-bound secrets of a tradition. In order to get the true information on any tradition you must go through the entire initiatory process.

[watershield]

agreed....and well written