extremely drawn to wicca but put off

[melady]

Hi.

Yes, I understand and have read the beauty in wicca and would love to call myself a wiccan, but one thing puts me off..........................The influence of Alistar Crowley (sp?) !!!!!!!!!!

I saw a documentary on him which was horrid, the things he did to animals, and the things I have read about him are really awful.

Is it just me or does anyone else feel this way?

Me lady xx

[watershield]

When I read posts like this I wonder what it is about wicca thats draws one.
Is it the organized ritualism that it offers? The set dogma similar to the Catholic church? Following a set and predictable pattern?

Or is the individual looking for the connection with nature? The freedom to seek their own interpritation of the divine and to find a unity with that divine existance that is emotional as well as spiritual?

Well, to me the first is wicca the second is paganism.

[Jen]

Nicely put WS.
One is wicca the other is paganism. Being pagan gives you the freedom to develop your own ideas and spiritual beliefs without the dogmatic restraints of most religious practices.

That is why I am pagan.

Melady - I'm not a fan of Crowley what-so-ever - I think the man was an egotistical, snotty, arrogant, little bigot.

People revered him so much because in his day his ideas were innovative and he was a very influential, charismatic persona.....

But that's it as far as I'm concerned

[sam]

A lot that was written about Crowley was sensationalism. I'd take it with a pinch of salt. Read some of his own stuff and make your decision about him. Without Crowley you probably would not have Wicca as we know it.
Wicca is just a small part of paganism, in fact I've yet to understand why the two seem to be a separate thing, Wicca amongst any other religions/beliefs fall under the umbrella term paganism. Its like saying Christianity and baptist.
What draws you to Wicca? And what do you think Wicca is?
Read the witches Bible by the Farrars I think this is the best 'Real" Wiccan book, its is what Wicca really is about, a coven based mystery tradition(?)
Or get intouch with a coven in your area and see if they have open learning circles.
But you will never take the crowley out of 'real' Wicca

You could always just be a pagan witch

[watershield]

Not having actually met Crowley, I'd be hesitant to state most things written about him were sensationalist. As to weather I'd believe or not what was written, I'd first review the source.
Personally, from what I have read about him, he was a mental midget with delusions of grandeur.

Not meaning to hijack this post but....Sam said
"Wicca is just a small part of paganism, in fact I've yet to understand why the two seem to be a separate thing"
Well, wicca is a religion and paganism is a belief.

Wiccians are the "born again" folks of the pagan community (of late) Frankly, there is more to being in tune with nature than owning a wand and acting out some ritual you read from a book you bought at Cole's.

Not meaning to pick on you Sam
"Its like saying Christianity and baptist."
Actually it's more like Wicca vs Paganism is like Catholicism vs Christianity.

By the way, that book.. the first half is Gardnerian rituals, the second half is an attempt to explain Alexandrian wicca. Again with the dogma!

Hope we're not putting you off melady.....got into a bit of a rant...
But wicca had more influences that just Crowley. Gardner also stole some idea's from the Masons and I think also got some influence from a story about the Marquise DE Sade and his Hell Fire Club.
Personally, having once been in a wiccian coven, I think wicca is for folks that want to rebel against the church but don't know how to worship without the rituals and trappings used by the church.

I sort of broached the questions to you in my original greetings as to just what your understanding currently is. Maybe we should give you the opportunity to reply ;D

[sam]

Not having actually met Crowley, I'd be hesitant to state most things written about him were sensationalist.

I think he invited sensationalism ,revelled in it.
(I went to a very good talk last year called Crowley: the man behind the Myth. given by the woman who runs the Atlantis book shop, she was in correspondence with Israel Regardie and got a lot of her information from him. If you ever get the chance it very interesting).

I chose the witches bible rather than the more new wiccan books because it sticks more closely to what Wicca is (was). The photo's alone would scare the pants off of a lot of wiccan wannabes (not aimed at Me Lady btw)

Not meaning to pick on you Sam

good!

"Wicca is just a small part of paganism, in fact I've yet to understand why the two seem to be a separate thing"
Well, wicca is a religion and paganism is a belief.

When asked my religion I say pagan. Wicca can be considered a religion because it has 'laws or rules'and structure. I think what im getting at has nothing to do with the OP sorry. I see a website which say "this is a website for Wiccans and Pagans", why can't it just say "this is a website for Pagans"
Its a simple bug bear of mine.

Anyway as far as Im concerned wicca is veering off of its self at a fast rate. I have heard many people claiming to be wiccan who do not follow the threefold law or the basics of the Wiccan rede. So if the newer wiccans are ignoring these laws can it still be called religion?

sorry for really hijacking the thread

[melady]

Thanks everyone.

Yes, you brought up some good points watershield. I can`t really pin point what it is about wicca that attracts me. I know I am a pagan, but it goes further than that in the way that when I pick up a book on wicca it`s a physical wrench to put it down and I get really strong spiritual feelings, hard to explain really. I guess I will just have to keep getting to know myself and find out exactly where I`m going with it and why.

Yes, even in my opinion there is more to wicca than Crowley, even though he has had some influence, I can see that! Another good point.

And then there is the sensational edge to it which is pretty obvious, the documentary I saw wasn`t on too long ago, I should know better than to be drawn into todays media, what ever the truth.

Like I said, maybe I should just keep reading and studying.

Thanks again, you have ALL given me something to think about.

Me lady xx

[Heka]

When asked my religion I say pagan.

You could just say 'I'm not religious, I'm pagan'. I think I'll say that from now on

melady, I started of Wiccan but slowly I'm realising that I'd rather just be a Witch/Pagan with Wiccan tendancies. Some of the structure and ritual is nice. But then thats what paganism is about, taking a bit from here and there.

Hope your thinking gets you somewhere!! ;D

[Jen]

I always say I'm not religious I'm spiritual - which sums it all up for me.

[kiowa]

Hi

I like the principles espoused in Wicca. Reverence for nature being the most important for me, I can't stand it the way we (in the west anyway) humans think we "own" the planet, that it's ok to exploit it for our own ends.

I dislike ritual per se, but find ritual in Wicca serves a purpose, it helps to align the group mind I think, which seems important for magickal work. I think a lot depends also here on whether you like working as a team or solitary! I've now worked both alone and in a group, the energies are different, I think it's a case of finding which suits you!

I don't know much about Crowley. I've read the Book of the Law. I didn't really take to it. I'd like to attend that lecture Sam mentions, to learn more.

I can understand Watershield's aversion to dogma. I'm an individualist and tend to feel the same way. I think it's really down to your individual preference. Anti-dogma sentiments can in themselves become dogmatic if repeated often enough and IMHO it's not worth getting into too much of a tangle over.

I would suggest reading as much about as many different pagan paths as possible to find the one that seems right for you!!

[kalikat]

I read through this post and I can just simply say that I agree with hedge and watershield. I am Pagan. I am not wiccan. I tried to be a good wiccan back when I was exploring. But I just couldnt stand the ritualism and dogma ..Being raised Roman Catholic, I was trying to get away from that stuff in the first place. I like to keep my spirituality simple and peaceful.

[WulfcwenStar]

I am pagan I follow a path that suits me and it is slowly evolving. Being a solitary pagan I can do what I want when I want and how I want to.
My beliefs are connected to nature but I would not say I am wiccan.
I gleaned information from books and the internet as well as recalling what my Father taught me and realised that he too was pagan.
I have always said go with what you feel is right for you. No one has the right to impose their ways onto you unless you allow them to.
As for Crowley I am no fan of his and second what Hedge said about him.
Do what you feel is right for you and don't let 'labels' get in the way.

[nini]

I am a Catholic pagan...thus i do what i feel and think i need to do and i don't care with "labels"

[fiamma]

May 20, 2008 7:57:30 GMT 1 sam said:

Wicca is just a small part of paganism, in fact I've yet to understand why the two seem to be a separate thing, Wicca amongst any other religions/beliefs fall under the umbrella term paganism. Its like saying Christianity and baptist.

I know this is from a little while ago, but I have a hard time not responding to comments like this.

Wicca to paganism is not analogous with the Baptist churches and Christianity.

Christianity is one religion, the Baptist churches are several different denominations within Christianity (Southern Baptists, Independent Baptist to name two, there are others) but at the end of the day, they are all simply variations on one theme, they are all denominations of Christianity like vanilla and chocolate are flavors of ice cream.

Wicca, on the other hand, is a specific religion with many traditions that could be compared to Christianity...Wicca has the Gardnerians, Alexandrians, Georgians, Blue Star etc, Christianity has the Baptists, Catholics, Nazarenes, Bretherens etc.

Paganism is not a religion. It is an umbrella term whose definition isn't really precisely defined and depending on who you're talking to, is sometimes used as broadly as covering anyone not of an Abrahamic religion (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Baha'i).

"Wiccan" and "pagan" are not one and the same. "Pagan" encompasses Wicca and a whole lot of other stuff that doesn't even vaguely resemble Wicca. (Aztec reconstructionists anyone?)

Unfortunately, thanks to popular publishing, "pagan" has become defined in many folks' minds as a particular vaguely-Wiccan-flavored-generic-neopaganism where everyone casts circles calls quarters and "uses" different gods and goddesses as "the lord" and "the lady".

This is far from the whole of paganism.

</soap box>

[mollimizz]

Interesting discussion !