caine
Super Member
Posts: 51
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Post by caine on Jan 25, 2007 0:59:22 GMT 1
I feel that many Wiccans seem to be inverting xtianity. Of course not turning crosses or anything that might be considered Satanic but instead inverteing the genders. The mother, maiden, crone concept is clearly in reference to the father, son, and holy spirit. On one occaison I found a prayer entitled the "Lady's Prayer" of course the title taken from the Lord's prayer. I have also found a ritual called the Pagan Sacrament which was as it sounds a conversion of a mass. A site that I did not bother to check out was called Passion of the Goddess which has a women on a cross instead of Jesus in its banner.
Just something to think about. Though I am no wiccan I do believe that all occult religions should try to be original with their rituals.
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Post by Jen on Jan 25, 2007 4:23:18 GMT 1
Well for one thing the triple moon aspect - maiden, mother and crone predates Christianity by a good few hundred years. Most of the Christian religion was created to replace pagan worship, if you study Christian and pagan festivals you will see a considerable similarity and I can assure you that the pagan celebrations were around before the Christian. Pagan worship does revere the goddess as a rule, but also holds things in equal balance by recognising the god aspect too, heads of Christianity wanted to change this by making a religion that solely worshipped a male deity, apart from Catholicism which at least recognised the importance of Jesus' mother.
I can't really comment on having a woman on a cross, I've not seen that nor have I heard about it or the people who follow that. But in this day and age when it is perfectly acceptable by a lot of people to make your own religious beliefs I can only say that it is religious evolution.
I certainly don't consider the maiden, mother and crone to be fluffy wicca at all - far from it.
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Post by Desladon on Jan 25, 2007 9:22:40 GMT 1
To be honest with you caine I think that most people believe their own variation. Really to think of the divinity as fitting into any gender seems kind of foolish to me personally.
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Post by sobek on Jan 25, 2007 17:24:37 GMT 1
"Really to think of the divinity as fitting into any gender seems kind of foolish to me personally."
maybe divinity want's to be closer to humanity?
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Post by watershield on Jan 25, 2007 20:17:54 GMT 1
The concept of male/female, yin/yang, positive/negative, is timeless.
Through this concept we experience balance
Most Christian paths acknowledge this as well, Catholic more than most with the adoration of Mary in addition to Christ.
The fact that some wiccea maintain a close affinity with the Christian faith does not lessen the validity of their path.
That is how they currently are able to interpret what they are experiencing.
There is an argument that indicates that Satan is a construct of the Christian faith, so to believe in or at least to invoke the name of Satan in ritual, places you in the midst of Liberal Christianity.
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caine
Super Member
Posts: 51
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Post by caine on Jan 25, 2007 23:45:43 GMT 1
No actually it doesn't how can I be a liberal xtian when i do not worship or give Jesus any divine after all isn't that what it means to be a xtian. I do not believe in Satan, I do believe because it is a fact that for centuries others have believed in Satan. I also believe that Satan is at its deepest level a proper symbol for the powers I wish to call.
Yes Satan is most certainly a construct of the xtian belief that is a fact. Also there may be goddesses that can be connected with the mother... but I doubt that you will find a pagan culture that believed this to be a trinity but if you can give me evidence I will have no problem with standing corrected. Also I amm rather sure only neo-paganism venerates the goddess above all not ancient paganism, but again if I see evidence otherwise. This post was inspired by some of idiot posts by wiccans on another forum calling Satanism a xtian inversion. I am sorry if anyone was offended.
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Post by Jen on Jan 26, 2007 22:20:49 GMT 1
Also I am rather sure only neo-paganism venerates the goddess above all not ancient paganism, but again if I see evidence otherwise. You're not serious are you? Female deities have been worshipped for thousands of years - Hera, Isis, venus, Ceridwen to name but a few. Also there may be goddesses that can be connected with the mother... but I doubt that you will find a pagan culture that believed this to be a trinity but if you can give me evidence I will have no problem with standing corrected. It is hard to find conclusive evidence of how ancient pagans worshipped their gods, most information that we have has been corrolated from archaeology and text transcribed from the early middle ages. It is believed that many Celtic traditions worshipped the triple goddess - it is also believed that this triple moon aspect derived from a fivefold divinity which consisted of the maiden, mother, crone, a male god whose aspects were the solar god of light and another male god who was lord of the region of the dead. Just as the Christian trinity consists of a three in one God each of which is acknowledged singularly, so the old Celtic faith ( we are told ) held to its overtly pantheistic, but covertly monotheistic fivefold divinity. This deity was conceived of as both male and female, with each of the five aspects being individually recognised and yet constituting a single, cohesive whole. Any how, I digress.....if you want to read up on the subject of divine trinities then here's a link you might like to take a look at www.answers.com/topic/triple-goddessI am sorry if anyone was offended. I wasn't offended at all ;D |
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vahla
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Post by vahla on Jan 27, 2007 6:58:35 GMT 1
K I'm new here and the last thing i want to do is piss anyone off or step on any toes but this topic has been tossed at me alot both in the outside, family, as well as online worlds, so here are my thoughts. From what i have seen, read, heard, ect, it's my impression that christianity was born out of paganism. If you look back to the history of christians, you'll find many instances where after extreem attempts to convert others, such as the celts for example, they found it near impossible to "stamp out" the old religions. You've all heard the old expression, "if you cant beat them, join them". Well essentialy thats what the christians attempted to do. When they realized that thier attempts at full conversion were winning them a bit more bloodshed than they were seeking, they worked toward incorporating the "old religions" into thier own, in order to make conversion "easier" for those they wished to convert. If you look at sabbats and esbats you will find many of them coincide with christian holidays. Winter solstice became christmas, ostara became easter, ect. As far as triple aspect deity and seeking evidence on them, look to the greek and roman pantheons as well as many others. Take the triple goddess Hecate for example. She was incorporated into roman mythology as well as greek, sumarian, and even egyptian panthions. Though these pantheons awarded her various names to go by, Diana Lucifera, Lilith, Hequit, they all recognized her origin, and kept her rulings in the same areas. The points on a cross are meant to represent the father the son and the holy ghost, the points on a pentacle, earth, air, fire, water, and the top point, the spirit. I guess it boils down to which came first, chicken or egg. In my personal philosophy...i think that perhaps the oldest of nature based religions eventualy assigned names, faces, and genders to different aspects of nature and its cycles in order to make it easier for humanity to feel and focus on a connection with them. It makes sense to me for the simple fact that many would say it's alot easier to visualize and focus your mind on a task at hand, if you have a name or a face to send thoughts to, pray to, direct energy toward. Like i said , just my own thoughts on the matters, if i stepped on any toes let me know, i'll keep the band-aids on hand  Blessed be, Val |
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Post by kelticsorcerer on Jan 29, 2007 6:01:29 GMT 1
to put this subject in a new light, I would like to point out that many "old gods" were androgenous which can still be seen in hinduism today where "male" entities like shiva and krishna are very often portrayed as women and the same goes for the "goddesses" being portrayed as men. Now from a broader perspective all the gods of hinduism are seen as separate aspects of a single entity. Likewise the gods of all religions are really not separate beings but different ideas of the same thing. male, female, christian, pagan, wiccan, muslim, hindu, taoist, they are all the same. The only mistake we make as humans, to do with spiritual matters, is to divide them.
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caine
Super Member
Posts: 51
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Post by caine on Feb 1, 2007 1:02:14 GMT 1
It is not suprising however that some Wiccan ideas are rather xtian like seein as how Wicca was born out of ceremonial magick which has its roots in gnosticism.
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Post by angelis on Feb 7, 2007 19:28:52 GMT 1
It is all based on the person as well. I mean you all hit a lot of key points and I really don't want to run over them all again. But I believe that there is a higher power out there. I don't know what face or title it holds but nor is it male nor female and it is simple to say I know they are there and I know I will one day become part of the power once again when my time is over and be placed back here when it is my time to teach and learn again.
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Post by fairymom on Feb 7, 2007 23:39:00 GMT 1
I agree with what has been said about paganism being around and christians adapting to it for their own.
I use to believe in the devil, but have learned that it is missunderstanding in people, and is all around us, and sometimes in us. Only if we let it out and let it take over us are we that (evil) come out. We have the choice to be good or bad, I choose to be good! to me life on earth is hell and we do the best we can to make it good!!
Yes i have seen an angel, angel of death to be exact when my mom was dying, and he was in the chapel at the hospital and held our hands and said the most beautiful prayer with us. NO ONE else saw him! he looked like an Irish Actor I use to watch!
Angels are all around us if you open your hearts and eyes.
just my 2 cents worth ;D
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Post by angelis on Feb 8, 2007 15:18:42 GMT 1
Hey noones two cents is never bad in here. We all have our ways and life styles its just the willing to come out and say it that a lot of people are afraid of doing.
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caine
Super Member
Posts: 51
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Post by caine on Feb 10, 2007 2:23:42 GMT 1
I agree with what has been said about paganism being around and christians adapting to it for their own. I use to believe in the devil, but have learned that it is missunderstanding in people, and is all around us, and sometimes in us. Only if we let it out and let it take over us are we that (evil) come out. We have the choice to be good or bad, I choose to be good! to me life on earth is hell and we do the best we can to make it good!! Yes i have seen an angel, angel of death to be exact when my mom was dying, and he was in the chapel at the hospital and held our hands and said the most beautiful prayer with us. NO ONE else saw him! he looked like an Irish Actor I use to watch! Angels are all around us if you open your hearts and eyes. just my 2 cents worth ;D You still believe in good and evil fairy. Also how do know it was an angel that you saw and not just your mind playing tricks on you? I don't mean to attack but i think you should be sure to have some sort of proof to make an absolute claim. Also since you believe in angels am I wrong to assume you also believe in demons? |
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Post by lionessoftorment on Feb 10, 2007 2:37:52 GMT 1
for one, why does it matter if they are inverting Christianity or not?
Also, That is personal. Not everyone believes every part of anything. I think that it shouldn't be an argument whether they are inverting Christianity because, though Wicca is relatively new, it is a form of paganism and Christianity did take aspects of paganism-they adapted it to fit themselves.
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