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Post by bluemoon on Aug 10, 2008 14:36:13 GMT 1
" The sincerity of your spiritual beliefs and the way you live your life in relation to your beliefs, is more important than what you actually believe."
This is a quote from the parish magazine of my mum's church. A magazine which mum edits and distributes. I don't think any pagan would have much difficulty with it. I admit that it's taken out of context, but that doesn't matter, because that's precisely what the vicar has done and, frankly, had a bit of a hissy fit. Threatening to remove Mum from her post - which won't happen as too many people have started buying the mag since Mum took over, no one else wants the job and Mum actually sinks a lot of her own money in. - threatening to go and retrieve all copies, then finally stating that she will write an article to refute it which Mum MUST publish in next month's issue.
Well, this isn't going to happen, partly because Mum is on her high horse now and will refuse, but also because the church is run by the PCC and church-wardens and the vicar actually has no legal say in anything. But I do find this worrying. This vicar is in effect saying that christianity is the ONLY possible belief system. How is the Church ever going to survive in a multi-cultural, multi-belief society if this is the attitude of its leadership? I thought we'd left attitudes like this behind years ago and the more I think about it, the more unsettled I become.
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Post by watershield on Aug 12, 2008 16:12:07 GMT 1
But you must see that it that sort of attitude that created the church in the first place.
Part of being Christian is believing the Jesus is THE only road to salvation and that everyone must be "saved" from the sin of ignorance.
The faithful believe in the Word of God, as it's recorded in the bible and that the WORD is all important. Your own belief is secondary as if you have faith in Jesus and the word, truth will be given you at the time of your redemption.
The faithful do not tollerate other beliefs as they lead away from Jesus and to sin and hell fire.
That's why the church IS fading away slowly. It lacks the ability to understand that there are many roads one may take.
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Post by lisa on Aug 12, 2008 18:36:26 GMT 1
I always found it frustrating that people think there is a monopoly on the interpretation of the Bible...and thus, feel it is their place to decide what it means and how it should be followed...
I am a writer...it is my only true "talent" on a higher level...it comes from a place in me and beyond me at the same time...
with that said...the one thing I have witnessed was that every person who read my work...took something different from it...I even had a person tell me things about myself that was so true and I didn't intentionally put in...but it was there loud and clear...he saw it...he felt it. And although it would not have been how I would have explained it...and I wrote it...he was not wrong...he simply saw a different dimension to it...
The Bible, is archaic, incomplete, and has been bastardized through the ages for self-interest..and ironically the only people who refuse to admit this are the people who claim they are the only people to truly understand it...
As a writer...I find this very very sad...as they take a beautiful piece of literature and uses it against, and exclude people who want to apply logic and reason...if people were allowed to question and re-evaluate to find more insight...allow it to grow in it's subjectiveness...it could be something much much more...
But, that would not fit into their whole Shepherd/Sheep analogy now would it? Must not think, must not question...must follow off cliff...
Seems to me when you really come down to it...they are their own worst enemies...
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Post by watershield on Aug 13, 2008 3:08:30 GMT 1
I'm sure that there was a Jesus and that he did teach his view of the divine.
Wouldn't it be something to be able to read the original text of his lessons.
Of coarse that's not possible as Jesus never wrote anything. Everything that is attributed to what he said was written by someone else untold years later.
As to the bible, if I remember right, it was written by over 50 people and revised over 30 times. For the average person, there is know way at all to tell what the original text was. You would need to see the original scroll and be able to translate it for yourself. Both the ones recorded in the bible and the ones held by Israel seldom seen by western eyes.
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Post by lisa on Aug 13, 2008 15:20:39 GMT 1
That's exactly why I find is so mind boggling that people such as my in-laws follow every word literally (they are Baptists)...and insist it is TRUTH, and the actual Word of God... This is also why I refer to it as piece of literature...and feel it should be treated as such...not disregarded...people want to follow it...go ahead...knock yourselves out...but, understand words and especially the meanings of words can be manipulated...and misinterpreted...(whether intentionally or by mistake) I would love to get my hands on the original scrolls...or sneak into the Vatican Library and find the hidden Gospels...or go back in time and sit on a grassy hill and listen to what Jesus actually had to say...to be able to decide for myself if I really do or do not agree with it ALL...because I honestly do believe...what is being spewed today is not what Jesus said...it's people have decided Jesus said...and if "those" people got to decide what it means or how much of it should be heard...then why shouldn't I get a crack at it too? Oh...but wait...there is that other little trait the Christians have become known for... Hypocracy  |
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Post by bluemoon on Aug 13, 2008 18:40:03 GMT 1
Mum still attends the little village church where she was baptized, attended Sunday school and married. Most of the younger people from the area now attend the church in the next village which is extremely evangelical - the whole shouting Hallelujah and fainting in the aisles thing - and much of the congregation at Mum's place is her age (70) or older. Twenty years ago they might all have gone along with the 'one true religion' idea, but these days, even in such a closed community where not one person from an ethnic minority lives, they have come to the personal conclusions that this is a fairly untenable attitude in todays society and are far more tolerant. I don't know if it's fear of a backlash from the evangelical lot, or whether the vicar feels threatened in some way, but it seems strange when, in my eyes at least, a vicar's congregation seems to be thinking in a far more moral and loving way than the vicar herself.
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Post by Jen on Aug 14, 2008 10:11:14 GMT 1
" The sincerity of your spiritual beliefs and the way you live your life in relation to your beliefs, is more important than what you actually believe." I love that and it's something I myself have said numerous times. Your mum sounds like a cool person bluemoon, but I am not at all surprised that she got the response she did from the vicar. |
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Post by PaganOne on Aug 20, 2008 23:50:10 GMT 1
" The sincerity of your spiritual beliefs and the way you live your life in relation to your beliefs, is more important than what you actually believe." A beautiful quote indeed! I agree wholeheartedly. Even though I am extremely anti-Christian, I do understand why they would be upset about such a quote. I don't fault them for their beliefs, but fault them for putting their beliefs into action against those who do not belief as they do. As George Carlin once said, "Keep thy religion to thy self." |
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Post by sul on Aug 21, 2008 16:52:12 GMT 1
Right On - Let's hear it for the PagansSxxxxxxxxxx
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Post by deserteagle on Aug 23, 2008 1:40:45 GMT 1
" The sincerity of your spiritual beliefs and the way you live your life in relation to your beliefs, is more important than what you actually believe." It is a horrible quote. If you sincerely believe racism, sexism or human sacrifice is spiritually the proper order of things and live your life this way, it's not okay. Delusional psychopathic behavior would be fine by this quote- do whatever crazy thing you want as long as you truly believe in it. |
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Post by watershield on Aug 23, 2008 3:08:20 GMT 1
Before anyone gets defensive.....
When I read this quoat to me it says your deeds are more important than your thoughts (beliefs)
Some how "do as I say, not as I do" sort of echo's around in there.
I don't find it a pleasent quoat and go back to my original comment that this really is the attitude that created "the church" (being all organized religion). I guess to fully understand why the vicar got crancked, we'd need to read the article and see the quoat in context with the full story, though I'm guessing that it points out the two faced nature of religion.
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Post by PaganOne on Aug 23, 2008 3:09:58 GMT 1
It is a horrible quote. If you sincerely believe racism, sexism or human sacrifice is spiritually the proper order of things and live your life this way, it's not okay. Delusional psychopathic behavior would be fine by this quote- do whatever crazy thing you want as long as you truly believe in it. Our morals and values system is most often determined by the majority religious beliefs of the society we were raised in. At one time in some societies, racism, sexism, and human sacrifice were quite acceptable. Of course I'm sure the victims of such beliefs probably didn't think so. What the quote means to me is that true spiritual freedom lies in truly believing and acting on one's beliefs, whether or not anyone else agrees or approves. If that makes me a psychopath, so be it. ;D |
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Post by bluemoon on Aug 26, 2008 18:12:57 GMT 1
Basically the whole article, which is way too long to print here, talked about religion, not about racism, sexism and the like (and I did point out to mum that Satanists would probably come under the umbrella of the quote) The thrust was that if you lived your life in a moral way, showing kindness where possible, helping others etc, etc, then it mattered little what religion those kindnesses, morals were based, or indeed if they were based upon any religion at all. The vicar's position seems to be that unless you are Christian your worth in these respects is devalued. Admittedly the second part, to be printed next month, does concentrate upon the Christian way of life, and how it's teachings affect the deeds of those who practice that religion, but as it is a Church magazine, that is to be expected. Generally the balance of the article is one of tolerance and I was really shocked that the vicar chose the line that she did.
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Post by deserteagle on Aug 27, 2008 13:34:09 GMT 1
Sure I agree with that and most world religions do teach love and compassion at their core which is of course a good thing. But religion also has capacity to be twisted or abused to establish a us vs. them mentality, how many wars and atrocities have been fueled by appeal to the spirituality of the common people?- who are always the "chosen people" who must protect their way of life. As we see similarities rather than differences in our spiritual beliefs we can become more tolerant and united, so your mom and I are sort of talking the same thing from different ends. I think we need separation of church and state and universal standards of behavior beyond spiritual beliefs or religion (not that I want to overlegislate everything either but that's a digression). So I still don't like the quote, but I appreciate what your mom was trying to do.
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Post by PaganOne on Aug 27, 2008 22:17:59 GMT 1
I think we need separation of church and state and universal standards of behavior beyond spiritual beliefs or religion. Agreed. Wouldn't that fall under the heading of humanism? ...The thrust was that if you lived your life in a moral way, showing kindness where possible, helping others etc, etc, then it mattered little what religion those kindnesses, morals were based, or indeed if they were based upon any religion at all. The vicar's position seems to be that unless you are Christian your worth in these respects is devalued. My father can't seem to come to grips with the fact that morals and values arise from social interaction and learned acceptable behavior therein. He believes that without God's decree, there would be no code of conduct. Simply blows my mind. |
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